Waterford Hills Road Racing  Forums

Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Bench racing, smack talking, and general chit chat

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby fastbackss » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:45 pm

mikegillie wrote:If you have a gap in the schedule you could make the extra run group an "Exhibition Group" and run it around 1 P.M. (prime time). Could be HPDE on Saturday and something else on Sunday. Some out of the box ideas (like a track promoter might think of)...
8. Legends Cars (they only ran once as a group at WHRRI in the 1990's, most likely will need waiver for sound ordinance. Usually good car count, might be good late in the year when their oval track season is over).


For what it's worth, the "Legends on a road course" discussion has come up within the last two weeks. The Michigan Legends group was just sold to the gentleman who owns Spartan Speedway. As such there is a lot of bantering back and forth about what the schedule should include.

WHRRI was thrown out there but the noise was listed as one of the obstacles. Some of the others were:
"not everyone may have access to the right rear end gear"
"mods that have to be made to be compliant" - lights and such, which I am hopefully would not be needed if they all ran together and not with any other group

There was an exhibition race this past year at Grand Bend Speedway - 9 cars competed, of which I was one. I thoroughly enjoyed it and am hopeful (but not optimistic) to see a roadrace on the 2013 schedule.
-Mike
fastbackss
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby mikegillie » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:04 pm

Mike,

I think sound would be the biggest barrier. There used to be a document on this website about how to adhere to sound limits and the Legends cars were well documented. I used the standard Legends Muffler with a Supertrapp Shorty welded to it. Keith Averill of Averill Racing Stuff did the fabrication and design work (I think this is the best option as it was self contained in the front wheel-well / fender). Other people used flexible exhaust hose into a cherry muffler (and other mufflers) and routed it out the back. Running an exhaust hose from the Legends Muffler and out the right side (under the door), did not meet the sound requirement and was prone to coming loose (by hitting curbs and bottoming out).

If my memory is right I think I used a 3:30 gear at Waterford which was better than the standard gear I started with at Waterford. I don't remember if the Legends Road Race rules pertained only to the SCCA or whether they were Legends Series Rules for Road Racing. Since the Waterford event is not an SCCA event and this might be treated as an exhibition maybe Legends rules would apply instead of SCCA rules.

My car had the heim joints captured with washers. The brake light was done with a pressure switch.

Hope this helps,
Mike Gillie
mikegillie
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:24 pm
WHRRI Member Number: 1993

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby Dave Lewis » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:10 pm

A quick call to Bill Catalfio at Mr C's car wash may yield some solutions also.
Clock Tower Dave.
Dave Lewis
 
Posts: 805
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:57 am
WHRRI Member Number: 2165

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby fastbackss » Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:32 pm

mikegillie wrote:If my memory is right I think I used a 3:30 gear at Waterford which was better than the standard gear I started with at Waterford. I don't remember if the Legends Road Race rules pertained only to the SCCA or whether they were Legends Series Rules for Road Racing. Since the Waterford event is not an SCCA event and this might be treated as an exhibition maybe Legends rules would apply instead of SCCA rules.

Mike,

Thanks for the reply. Any recollection of what the lap times were, even approximately?

-Mike
fastbackss
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby mikegillie » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:49 pm

Mike,

Mike McCarthy held the Legends Class (LC) Lap record which was around 1:15. This is about the same lap record he set in a Spec Racer Ford (SRF). Most of the field was in the 1:19 to 1:23 range. The legends group started out as an experimental group (i.e. X7) and eventually became a group/class called LC. The group wanted to go faster, so the group agreed to run BF Goodrich R1 tires. This improved cornering / stability and the lap times fell about two seconds. So with standard Legend tires, I would expect lap times in the 1:21 to 1:25 range.

--- Mike Gillie
mikegillie
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:24 pm
WHRRI Member Number: 1993

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby fastbackss » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:15 pm

mikegillie wrote:Mike,

Most of the field was in the 1:19 to 1:23 range. <snip> So with standard Legend tires, I would expect lap times in the 1:21 to 1:25 range.


Interesting, very interesting.

Thanks Mike.

I am even more intrigued now.

As an aside, here is some footage from the exhibition race this past year over in Ontario. Most of the guys had never been on a road course:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xacGhRc-3R0
fastbackss
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby greendot » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:38 am

FWIW, my recollection is that when they went to the stickier tires they also started to have issues with chassis durability.
Joan Rivers response to Johnny Carson when Carson said don't you think men are looking for intelligence?
No man has every put his hand up a woman's dress looking for a library card.
RIP Joan
greendot
 
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:25 am
Location: Milford, MI
WHRRI Member Number: 1444

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby mikegillie » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:25 am

I would agree with the comment regarding chassis durability as well as suspension and brakes. I would not recommend running stickier tires on the Legends Cars (pushing the car beyond design spec). If you are running the cars according to Legends Rules you are not allowed to run stickier tires (must run the Spec tire).

In the late 1990's about 5 to 8 Legends cars were running in a Production Group that had Spec Racers (Renaults and Fords), Mini Coopers, Spitfires etc.. The faster Legends guys were discovering that the Legends Cars were passing people in the straights and then getting passed in the corners. This was the biggest reason the group went with stickier tires.

The Legends car was my first race car (I was a complete naive novice). In hindsight I would say, that if you want to only do road racing, the Legends Car is not a good choice (especially if in a run-group with non-Legends cars). If you want to do oval track racing and an occasional road race, then the Legends Car makes sense. I also feel that a Legends only Exhibition run group would be best.

--- Mike Gillie
mikegillie
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:24 pm
WHRRI Member Number: 1993

Re: Thoughts on HPDEs running on race weekends?

Postby 38Bfast » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:47 pm

This is a copy of the E-mail I sent to the Comp Board Chair, Jim Lamb.

I would support adding TT to the WHRRI offerings.

Currently NASA offers a TT program with minimal safety equipment required and is very successful.

I would not base it on car potential performance but on driver performance. Using a bracket racing system. An example would be bracket ranges 1.24, 1.22, 1.20, 1.18, 1.16. Any car that entered would have to disclose what bracket their are in and not exceed that time. If the time was exceeded it would result in a DQ from that session. The finishing positions would be determined by coming closest to your selected bracket time. This would eliminate any technical grouping for the prospective cars. In short, No tech and any car configuration can participate (except open wheel). I would propose the format would be just like the door to door classes qualifying sessions. Open passing would be allowed but if any contact was made with another car it would result in a 6 event DQ. transponders would be required. I would suggest offering 2 sessions on Saturday and 2 sessions on Sunday with time accumulating toward the end target bracket. Car numbers would be required. I would also suggest that the cost be the same as the door to door classes (same amount of track time). It would be manditory that you must participate in 2 OTD or equivalent track time to qualify for entry. I would also suggest that a specific mandatory drivers meeting be held for any TT competitors both on Saturday and Sunday. Trophies would be offered for 1-3 in each bracket.

I see this as an avenue to open up new opportunities for more club participation and revenue. It would also bridge the gap between OTD and full race weekends. If feel promoting our OTD participants to the next level as well as offer more track time to our current racing participants. We would have to advertise it well online and at our OTD. It is also an avenue to attract some of the SCCA Solo competitors.

Obviously this is a new concept to WHRRI and cooperation and member input would be crucial for the success of any new program.

Ralph Provitz
08 DSR

P.S.
I don't believe at this time we would want to offer the class faster than 1:16 at this time, Just my thought. NASA does not have any restrictions on performance.

Just for reference NASA has been doing TT for years with very few incidents. Far less than the door to door racing.
V2 Motorsports
Ralph Provitz
2008 Spec Miata Champion
2008 WH top 10
38 DSR
Ralph@v2motorsports.com
User avatar
38Bfast
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:57 am
Location: Macomb

TT would be ideal!

Postby Applejack » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:01 pm

Ralph, I really like that proposal and I really want to participate in a program like that! The bracket idea is really cool

Something like that would really fit my needs. I'm a recovering autocrosser and I'm shifting my focus towards track days now that I have a young family. Long weekends away from home for a few minutes of seat time doesn't work for me anymore, but I'm still not in a position to race wheel to wheel. While that's attractive I'm not ready to move on from my track car to something in one of the typical classes. Track days are fun, but I'm used to being timed. I love competing against myself with the data logger, but it still leaves a bit to be desired.

I've been strongly considering NASA TT, but again, tracks are further away from the Detroit area requiring tow time and hotels. Having a TT option right here at Waterford Hills would be just what I'm looking for.

Beyond echoing your proposal to Jim Lamb, what can I do to help get this going? I'll put the word out to a few friends that I think may also be interested, but that won't fill a run group.

I'd love to help get this off the ground.
Jason Kolk
TT: 2004 Ford Focus SVT, Comp Orange 5-door
'65 Mustang Coupe
User avatar
Applejack
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:04 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion